Text Version

(Introduction to show begins)

ERIC (Co-host of Missing Pieces): Good evening one and all.  I want to welcome all of our listeners to Missing Pieces.  Tonight’s show will be hosted by Todd Matthews of ‘The Lost and The Found Global Research Center’ and he’s bringing with him a guest and we want to welcome everybody to the studio today.  Todd, how are you?

TODD (Host of Missing Pieces):  I’m doing great, Eric.  How are you?

ERIC:  I’m doing wonderful.  Listen, why don’t you introduce us to your guest.

TODD:  Tonight we have Shari Greer, a very long-time friend of mine.  How are you doing, Shari?

SHARI ‘LILLIE’ GREER (Guest and mother of Kathryn Mary Herbert):  I’m doing just fine honey, thanks.

ERIC:  Shari, it’s good to…

TODD:   We call her Lillie on our cold-case discussion group.  This group is several years old now and Lillie’s part of the woodwork there.  So she’s been with us a long time but she has something in particular that brings her here, unfortunately it’s not something very good.  Kathryn-Mary Herbert, Abbotsford, British Columbia, 11 years old at the time of the crime; white female, 5 foot 1 inch, 120 pounds, shoulder-length brown hair.  On September 24, 1975, Kathryn-Mary Herbert, 11 years old from Abbotsford, British Columbia, was abducted on her way home from her friend’s house approximately a mile from her home.  I know that’s hard for you to hear Lillie.

LILLIE:  Sometimes, yes.

TODD:  Can you tell us a little bit more about it?

LILLIE:  She’d asked me after school if she could go to her friend’s for a while and I said, yes, she could, and then she was late coming home and I phoned her a told her to get her butt home, she was grounded.  She said, “Okay”.  So apparently after I left for a meeting, she phoned or her brother phoned her, I’m not sure which, and they had a fight and so she stayed longer…

TODD:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  …and then she was bicycled almost all the way home by a friend of hers and…

TODD:  So she was missing approximately 3 weeks.

LILLIE:  Missing?  She was missing for 2 months.

TODD:  Wow.

LILLIE:  Yeah.  We went out and searched for her.  We dug in places where it looked like the soil had been freshly turned and…it was really hard.

TODD:  So, fall is a really bad time period for you, because I know you’ve had a series of tragedies in the end of the year and I appreciate you talking to us about this because I think you’re going to help other people.  You’ve been so strong and you’ve always been there to help so many other people.  I think a lot of people don’t realize all the tragedy you’ve had in your life that’s helped you to be a beacon for others.  Now Kathryn-Mary was found on November 17, 1975.


TODD:  She had a fractured skull and a broken jaw.


TODD:  But the autopsy could not confirm if she’d been sexually assaulted.

LILLIE:  The police seem to skillfully forget that her underwear and her shoes and socks were missing.

TODD:  It’s hard to do, but can you take us back to that day?

LILLIE:  When they found her?

TODD:  Yes.

LILLIE:  When they found her, it was on the radio before I even knew and fortunately I didn’t hear it on the radio but a lot of my friends did.

TODD:  Were they able to get to you beforehand?

LILLIE:  No, no the police didn’t even try to get a hold of me beforehand, and they came to the house around dinnertime and I was with my kids at a friend’s house for dinner and so the girl that was staying at my house phoned me and told me the police were there.  So when I went home they told me that Kathryn-Mary had been found and that I couldn’t see her.

TODD:  Her body was found near the grounds of an Indian Reservation.

LILLIE:  Yes, it was on the grounds of an Indian Reservation actually.

TODD:  Hidden under a sheet of plywood.

LILLIE:  Yeah.  They said it was the wall of an old outhouse that had been there and the guy used it to cover her body.

TODD:  Now, the investigation from this point forward; how did it begin?  What happened next?

LILLIE:  Well, they came to the house and asked a lot of questions, of course, and they came to a lot of conclusions that have been proven wrong since.  They told me she was afraid to come home and the people where she was said this was not true, she was not afraid.  She just said, “I have to get home, I’m grounded.”   So there was no fear.

TODD:  So some the guilt was actually, well blame, was shifted back toward you.

LILLIE:  Oh yeah, yeah, and they didn’t even interview the people where she was that day until a year later, over a year later was when they went and interviewed her.

TODD:  That’s a long time.

LILLIE:  Yeah, well like I said the investigation was botched from the very beginning and they buried the clothes she was murdered in, in the coffin with her.

TODD:  Now that could have yielded some clues.

LILLIE:  Pardon me?

TODD:  Those clothes could have yielded some important clues.

LILLIE:  Of course, of course.  The police chief said it was customary to bury the clothes with the victim.  Not true.

TODD:  Customary where?

LILLIE:  Yeah well obviously there, but they have lied so much over the years and tried to cover up that, you know, I have no respect for them.

TODD:  Now, when you said they’ve lied and tried to cover up, you don’t think that they were actually involved in the crime, more so they were trying to cover up where they had taken some of the wrong steps initially?

LILLIE:  Oh, big time, big time.  The thing that bothers me the most is the fact that the evidence disappeared from two police departments.

TODD:  Okay, what evidence?

LILLIE:  All of the original files are gone and, of course, her clothes are not there and they’re not usable.  I fought for 4 years for them to do a better autopsy and so they finally did…

TODD:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  …and they found the clothes in the coffin with her in a bag and they were just mush.  There was nothing they could get from it.

TODD:  So it was too late for her?

LILLIE:  Yeah, and she was sent two letters after she died and someone found them and turned them over to the police.

TODD:  Two letters?

LILLIE:  Two letters and…

TODD:  How did these letters reach you?

LILLIE:  I never ever saw them.

TODD:  Where were they found?

LILLIE:  They were sent to the RCMP lab and they lost them and I…

TODD:  That’s the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?

LILLIE:  Oh, I’m sorry, I forget I’m talking to the States here.  Yeah, they sent them to the lab to see if the handwriting matched with the original suspect who was a convicted pedophile.

TODD:  Okay, so the prime suspect in this case is a convicted rapist, before and after…


TODD:  …he is now free and has never been charged with the murder of Kathryn-Mary.

LILLIE:  Right.

TODD:  I’m reading from one of your websites, you have many, because you have many friends that have put some of this stuff together.

LILLIE:  Oh yeah, for sure, I never did any of those websites.

TODD:  Do you have any feelings that this person, which we won’t name this person, is responsible for the death of your daughter?

LILLIE:  He well could be but since that time a family, as a matter of fact, the family whose house I was at for dinner that night, they think that if the father didn’t kill Kathryn-Mary, he knows who did.  This information was given to Abbotsford Police who did not follow up on it.  They said he dug a big hole in his back yard and pushed twp cars in, he owns a backhoe business, so he had no problem doing that…he pushed 2 cars in, covered them up and built a workshop over top.  Now, what’s in the trunk of those cars?  You know?

TODD:  Yeah.

LILLIE:  It just boggles the mind.

TODD:  Now, then and now, is there a difference in Abbotsford?  With the police department?

LILLIE:  NO.  No, actually I’ve caused a lot of waves and made them very angry, so to punish me they didn’t follow through on a lot of promises…one in particular, was to have a new profile done and the officer said, “I couldn’t have it done because they need DNA.”  And I said to them, “What do you need DNA to do a profile for?”  He said, “I know what the RCMP needs, you don’t.”  Well excuse me, I took a profiling course, only one mind you, with Knowledge Solutions, with Brent Turvey and I know there’s more than one way to do a profile so that was another slap in the face.  You know, they really don’t care who killed Kathryn-Mary.  What they care about is covering up all the mistakes, but I do notice every time something goes in the paper about them and Kathryn-Mary’s case, they never come back to fight it because they know they can’t fight the truth.

TODD:  There’s just silence.


TODD:  Do you have any confidence, because we were going to give the number for the Abbotsford Police Department as a contact for anybody out there that might have some input on this crime as far as a tip, do you confidence that this will reach the right people if we give this number?

LILLIE:  (Sighs)  I’m not really sure that they’ll act on it, but I will give you a name and the Abbotsford Police Force and, prayerfully, if anybody calls they will do something.  Abbotsford Police Force, phone number (604) 859-5225 and the person to contact would be, Mackenzie, not the Chief, he was a Corporal Mackenzie…I can’t remember his first name, I’m sorry…

TODD:  That’s okay.  Take your time.

LILLIE:  Well, you’d be here for a month; my memory is terrible.

TODD:  Well, you’ve had a lot on your mind.  Well, we’ll go back to the letters and I’m sure Eric probably has questions and if I know Eric, he’s writing a list of questions.

ERIC:  Yes, yes I am.  Welcome to the show, Lillie, if you don’t mind me calling you Lillie?

LILLIE:  By all means, Lillie’s a name given to me by some Brownies and Girl Guides.

ERIC:  Okay.

TODD:  Their matriarch.

ERIC:  Al right.  You know I do have to ask the question, what is the political structure like there in Abbotsford?  Have they been a help or a hindrance or have they just stood by and not done anything?

LILLIE:  They’ve done nothing.  I’ve tried writing to the mayor, you know, nobody does anything.  It’s all a matter of politics.

ERIC:  I mean, we’re talking about an 11-year-old child.

LILLIE:  That’s right and that’s what I keep trying to tell them.  As a matter of fact, on the 31st anniversary I sent a message to the Abbotsford Police Chief reminding him about her because they need to be reminded.

TODD:  Did they answer that letter?

LILLIE:  Well I don’t know what was in the letters (referring to the 2 letters sent to the RCMP).  I have no idea.  I never saw them.  They never…if they had brought them here…

TODD:  Okay, now these are the letters that were sent to your daughter after?

LILLIE:  Yeah, if they had brought them to me, you know, and let me read them, maybe I could have identified the author by something said in them.

TODD:  Now, do you have any idea of the content of those letters?

LILLIE:  Nope.  Nope, not a word.

TODD:  Do you have any idea where the letters are?

LILLIE:  They were sent to the RCMP lab in Vancouver and they’ve not been seen since.

TODD:  Have you asked?  Well I know that but, tell me what you are told when you asked.

LILLIE:  What the RCMP wrote back to me when they couldn’t find them was, “I hope you have closure knowing that we can’t find these letters.”  That was his response.

ERIC:  That’s kind of callous, it really is.

LILLIE:  I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.

ERIC:  No, I was saying that’s kind of callous of him to say such a thing.

LILLIE:  Well, the Chief wrote when I went for Freedom of Information, the Chief wrote and said my daughter was a teenager, so…

TODD:  And she was 11 years old.

LILLIE:  And she was 11 years old.

TODD:  Now, I’m usually suspicious, you know a lot of times when family members have a lot of animosity for law enforcement because they feel like they’re not doing enough when there’s really nothing that they can do, but I know Shari, I’ve known her for a long time now and I’ve never seen anything but the truth out of her.  Everything that I’ve seen her say and do has been very truthful in this…she has worked on this very hard, I’ve seen the letters that she has sent to these people and I’ve heard some of the replies and it seems cold and I really don’t understand why.  I really have never been able to find why they seem so cold and evasive.

LILLIE:  Because they need to cover up what they’ve done or not done.  It needs to be covered up.  If people realized these officers are not doing what they are supposed to do.  You know, when they first went in police work, it was because they wanted to do a good job and bring justice; somewhere along the line they lose their focus.  That focus, is more often than not, their end retirement or their political career that they may have or whatever; it’s so hard to go along with their attitude.  Believe me.

TODD:  But I mean, there have been so many years that this went on in between here, you know I know there has to be a change of command during this time period, you would think that with fresh people, you know, some of these walls would come down.

LILLIE:  There aren’t enough people out there that care enough to push.  There aren’t enough.

TODD:  I know there’s been a great deal of effort on your behalf, you know…

LILLIE:  Oh yes.

TODD:  …I mean I’m seeing like 8 websites that we’ve actually linked on our newsletter that went out and you’ve got so many, and you’ve always got the floor on Cold Cases’ discussion group…you’re there for everybody.  She signs, on one her signature lines, “You ain’t gonna win unless you put up a good fight; so don’t give up hope any day or night,” by John Henry.  She always has that posted on each and every email that she sends out and it’s true; it’s an embodiment of her, of Lillie, and I just can’t imagine that you’ve not got any further with this case.

LILLIE:  Cover-up is such a dirty word and it really is dirty play and they get away with it.

TODD:  Now their website, Abbotsford Police now have a website.  I’ve not looked at it.  Is your daughter’s case profiled on their website?

LILLIE:  You know, quite honestly, not one of the unsolved murders in Abbotsford, is on that website.  Not one.  However, if you type in Kathryn-Mary’s name, it will say, “This link provided by the family” and then you go to my memorial website for my kids.

TODD:  And we’ll definitely have that available for everybody to look at but I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t be on their website.

LILLIE:  Well, if they put that on their website, that’s a black mark against them, isn’t it?  They have several unsolved homicides and I wish that I could remember them all, but the only one that I can remember right now is Theresa Hildebrand, who was murdered in May (1976) of the next year from when Kath was murdered and her death was the same…skull fracture.

TODD:  Do you think it’s possibly a connected crime?

LILLIE:  Oh, I believe it could be, yeah.

TODD:  Has it been looked at as a connected crime?

LILLIE:  Yes it has, but I don’t know if it was looked at in Abbotsford in that way, but we had a little girl, Monica Jack, in the Okanagan who was murdered and they tried to connect the three because I guess her murder was the same method so… (Lillie sighs).

ERIC:  So, Lillie, if I’m right say so…there’s a serial killer in the mix, I mean…

LILLIE:  Of course, I believe that.  I believe that, but you see Abbotsford does not like to believe stuff like that.

ERIC:  Okay.

LILLIE:  You can’t…I don’t know…

TODD:  Well, I’ve seen a lot of towns that don’t like to admit something of that nature and you see a lot of variety in a lot of different towns, a lot of different cities…some embrace the fact that there are people willing to try to resolve these cases and they put an honest step forward admitting the crime that they’ve had in their area and proudly say what they are trying to do about it.  Others tend to just not want to admit that it had happened at all so I see a lot of variety in that type of thing, but this one, when it’s a child, it is just so difficult to let it fall to the side.

LILLIE:  It isn’t…it isn’t their child.

TODD:  That makes a big difference.

LILLIE:  It does, and this is another thing I said to the police chief when I wrote to him, “If it were your child, it would be different.”  You know you think it can’t happen to you but it comes up and slaps you in the face; that’s problem, people don’t believe these things happen to them.  I never thought it would.

TODD:  Now the other family, have you been in communication with those people?

LILLIE:  Oh, other families?

TODD:  Well, the other family of the other child.

LILLIE:  Theresa Hildebrand?

TODD:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  Her family?  Yes, but her mum will not discuss it at all.  Her brother…

TODD:  From pain or…?

LILLIE:  Oh yeah, it’s painful, it’s very painful.  You can lose so many people that you love in your life, but to lose your child…you never get over that.  It’s with you 24/7…the loneliness for them, the missing them, the wanting to hold them, it’s with you always.

TODD:  And you have been so strong and you’ve become a mother to so many people.  I’ve seen it time and time again; she’s been there.  I’ve had a lot of personal tragedy in my family in recent years and Lillie is one of the first people right there, you know, she’s always right there, and I think it’s because she knows all too well what it feels like, unfortunately, she’s knows it.

LILLIE:  Well I know how I feel, I don’t know how you feel sweetheart, but I can’t even lay claim to that, but I know how I feel and people have to know someone cares.

TODD:  I think a lot of people care about you; I know that for a fact.  You have a great deal of respect in this community.

LILLIE:  I love those people with all my heart, you know that.

TODD:  Of course.

LILLIE:  But, I’m talking about…oh, I don’t even know what I’m talking about anymore.

TODD:  It’s difficult.  I think Eric might have another question and I’ve got a couple of other topics to move onto with you.

ERIC:  Okay, one of my questions is, basically for our listeners.  First off, let me preface it with saying that anybody who would like to become a part of this conversation, you can call in to our toll-free line at (866) 921-2205, dial 1 first.  That’s l-866-921-2205.  One of my questions is, like I said, I would like you to answer it for our listeners, simply because, if we contact, if we petition the Abbotsford Police Department, what would you like for us to say?  I mean, what is that we can say to either flood this station with getting them up off their duff and getting them to start doing something to try to solve this crime?

LILLIE:  I’ll tell you, honey, that would not make a difference.  It’s been done.  It’s been done, but I appreciate the fact that you thought of it, but it’s been done.  Even the unsolved crimes people, Ronnie, from there, she had people write all kinds of letters to the Solicitor General here and they totally ignored it.

TODD:  Huge effort.


TODD:  It took a lot of time to do that and I applaud the guys that helped get together, and my own letter was in there, we saw basically no effect for all the effort we put in.  It was very disheartening.  We were so confident that there would be some type of response, but it was like throwing…it was like a brick wall.

LILLIE:  Yeah.

TODD:  You know, there was just nothing.

LILLIE:  But you see, I’ve made a lot of waves. 

TODD:  Oh yeah.

LILLIE:  I’ve done…I’ve made a lot of newspaper and television interviews so they don’t like that, but if they hadn’t lied and hadn’t manipulated me for so long, I would not have done that but when they go out of their way to make things up and to promise you things and then pull that rug out from under you, you have do to something.

TODD:  Where do you get this energy to do this?  You know I see another quote, “Never be bullied into silence.  Never allow yourself to be made a victim.  Accept no one’s definition of your life; define yourself” Harvey Fierstein.  You’re living this.  You just don’t put these signatures on your emails.  You have truly become this person.  How do you do it?

LILLIE:  Because I believe in God, and I believe that I will know, without him even telling me, when I die, why all of this took place.  As you know, my husband died 2 years ago this Thursday, and he was my best friend, and I miss him so much, and it’s brought all the pain of my kids dying back so heavy...

TODD:  It was a very difficult time for you and thank God you had a lot of people that were sharing this with you and sharing the pain with you, but you know nobody can take it away, and I apologize, I feel like I’m crucifying you tonight by asking you all these questions, but you know why we’re doing this.


TODD:  It’s a memory…

LILLIE:  Oh, I appreciate it.

TODD:  It’s a memory of these people that were so dear to you and we want to make a positive difference and your faith is just unbelievable.  I don’t think, if I was in your position, I don’t think I could get out of bed and I just, I admire you so much.

LILLIE:  Oh, that’s so sweet of you.

TODD:  You know, you…a lot of times I’ll get these little positive notes from Lillie saying, “Great job on this.  Great job on that,” and I thought, she is one of the people that are the ‘wind beneath the wings’.  I must tell you that she’s just incredible…

LILLIE:  You’ll make me cry…you’ve got to stop.

TODD:  Well, that’s okay because that’s the truth and you’ve just become so important to so many people.  You will always be a mother because you’ve been a mother to many of us.

LILLIE:  Well as I’ve told you before honey, I think of you as one of my other kids anyway.  You know I love you.

TODD:  Oh I love you too, more than you can possibly imagine.  Now, there’s more.

LILLIE:  Okay.

TODD:  There’s more to your story.  I know you had other children.

LILLIE:  I have two surviving sons; one stepson and my Donnie drowned, he was 9 years old, he drowned the year before my Kathryn-Mary was murdered and then 8 years after Kathryn-Mary, my oldest boy died by suicide.

TODD:  Now Donnie, of course, he was the one that drowned and you were still in a lot of turmoil over this happening when Kathryn-Mary disappeared.

LILLIE:  Yeah.  Yeah, it took me a lot of years to allow myself to grieve and now I give myself permission to grieve anytime I want.

TODD:  Well, you’ve earned the right.

LILLIE:  Sometimes, like in the last month, I climb down into this hole and stay there and I write little messages to the groups so that it’s more of a salvation thing for me than for anyone else because I have to keep reminding myself that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

TODD:  Now what type of a…when we talk about family, you’re learning to reach out and have family in other places.  We’re across the continent from each other now but think of this family that you’ve met online and how important this family has become to you.

LILLIE:  Oh, big time.  Big time.

TODD:  It is just overwhelming, because I always know any time we talk on the internet I can send an email to Lillie because she’s just going to be there.  You’re always there and I don’t know what I’ll do come the day you’re not there.

LILLIE:  Well you know what?  I will come back and haunt you.

TODD:  It won’t be the first time.  (Laughs)

LILLIE:  (Laughs also)

TODD:  You keep your sense of humor and I think that’s what helped you stay so strong.  You’ve not become a bitter woman, you’ve just been so strong and I just can’t believe it, but she’s always got a joke…now jokes, I always get these jokes forwarded from Lillie and they’re always just…they come at the time and it’s just like you’ve got this spiritual bond with this person…they come at the time of the day when I really needed it and you think, “Wow, that lady, she’s always got something to make you feel better.”  You know, you don’t hear, “This is how bad I feel and I want to feel bad too.”  She’s telling you, “Feel good, whether I do or not.”  She’s just incredible and there’s still more.  We’re going to talk about a few more things that have happened to you and then some of the good things that we’ve worked on.  Now, your son that committed suicide…

LILLIE:  He died by suicide.  Committed means he broke the law.  He didn’t break the law; he died by suicide.

TODD:  You want to tell us a little bit about that?

LILLIE:  Well, he agonized over his sister’s murder and he did everything he could to solve it and he would phone me and say, “I know who did it” and he’d name off someone that I didn’t have a clue half the time who he was talking about and…

TODD:  Because this just sort of pushed him, you know, completely over the edge and that’s a risk.

LILLIE:  It did…well, you know, if the police had brought me those letters, he might still be alive because they were sent to them, given to them in July 1980, and 3 years later my son suicided because he felt he failed her because he couldn’t solve her murder.  I mean he tried drugs, he tried everything, he just went so down and I watched him spiral and I couldn’t do anything to save him.

TODD:  And yet you survived again.  You’re just an incredibly strong woman.  I just feel like he…what all did he do?  I know that he was incredibly active in trying to work on this case with his sister.

LILLIE:  (Sighs)  Oh God, yes.

TODD:  How did he start out?  Was that… and of course he didn’t have the invention of the Internet at the time.

LILLIE:  No, but he was just a young boy when she died, and he went with me when we were looking for her and he wouldn’t even go to school, he needed to be with me and so he dug in the ground too.  Probably, in hindsight, that wasn’t a good thing for me to do but, then it got to the point where we were afraid we’d find her.

TODD:  I can imagine that too.

LILLIE:  We had to stop…so…

TODD:  I’ve seen people get to that point where they’re afraid to keep digging and, you know, I mean digging through files and because they know.

LILLIE:  No, I was digging in the ground.

TODD:  Yeah, but literally in the ground and through files and they’re knowing, if I turn this page, will this be the page that I am dreading, is this going to be the point that I don’t want to see?

LILLIE:   Well, I’ve got Kathryn-Mary’s autopsy reports; the first one was, maybe, one page 8 1/2” by 11”, maybe, if it was that much, the rest was all rhetoric and that’s why I pushed for the second autopsy.

TODD:  How many pages?

LILLIE:  The second one, I think, was 38 pages.

TODD:  Was there any new, important information?

LILLIE:  Do you know, I think they may have withheld some stuff from me?

TODD:   The first time?

LILLIE:   No, the second time.

TODD:  And again, I’m asking you questions, you know that I know, but I’m drawing the story out a little bit, but now the second time, you still think that they have data that they have not yet shared with you, on purpose?

LILLIE:  Oh sure, I think so, yeah.  Yeah.

TODD:  Eric, have you got anything?

ERIC:   You know, I’m listening and the callousness of this police department…when you had asked her earlier about…when Lillie had commented about them coming to conclusions and then trying to, you know, put the blame on her not coming home because “she (Kathryn) was afraid.”  I fail to see what it is the police department was hoping to achieve by, okay, even if she was afraid, what did that have to do with the abduction?  Go ahead.

LILLIE:  A year after, they asked me to take a polygraph.

ERIC:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  And that really made me angry because when Kathryn-Mary was first missing, a woman who’d never met me told the police I’d said, “I killed her and buried her in my basement,” and I said to the police at the time, “Check it out.  Check where I was.  Check what time I came home.  Check me out.”

TODD:  Any action would have been great.

LILLIE:  Yeah, and they said, he said to me, “We know you didn’t kill her Shari, so why would we bother?”  So…(sighs)…that was wonderful.  A year later, they came, well it was a bit more than a year, they came and they asked me to take a polygraph and I did.  I had two lawyers waiting for me, telling me, “Don’t do this,” but, you know, when I went into that room, I went in there with God and I didn’t go in alone.  They kept telling me, “You’ll be alone,” and I kept telling them, “No, I won’t.”

ERIC:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  And so I did the polygraph, and then the officer who asked me to do the polygraph came to the house, and I said to him, “I already know that it says I didn’t kill my little girl.”  And he said, “No, that only means that you don’t THINK that you killed your little girl.”  EXCUSE ME!?  You know, so I was not a happy camper.

ERIC:  Okay.

LILLIE:  So I told him, “Never come back to my house”.

ERIC:  Let me ask you another question because you said that the clothes were in a bag and they were buried with her; does the undertaker or the funeral home, do they know how that happened?

LILLIE:  Oh no.  No, the cop that really cares about Kathryn-Mary’s case tried contacting the pathologist, he never, ever returned a response to his letter, so I’m sure they would have known the difference; they just did it.  I’m sorry, I have ‘call-rudeness’ and they keep beeping so that’s why the phone’s cutting out.

TODD:  It’s great.  We can hear you really good.  You have another quote, “I expect to pass through this world but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness or abilities that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now; let me not defer it nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again,” by William Penn.  Yet again, there’s another one that you really stick to; you really mean it.  Now, you show all this passion for so many other people and you’ve helped shape other people’s ability to cope with their own problem.  Now I have to ask, is there any other agency you could take it to above Abbotsford?  Certainly you’ve met enough people, you’ve made enough friends…

LILLIE:  I’ve written to the Prime Minister, who is head of the country.

TODD:  Okay, where is he located?

LILLIE:  He’s in Ottawa, (Ontario).

TODD:  Okay.

LILLIE:  And I got back a message, “This is already investigated.”  Excuse me!

TODD:  Not until it’s resolved.

LILLIE:  Yeah, so, I don’t know…I don’t know.  Nobody wants to get involved.  Nobody.  I went to one guy, a member of parliament at one time and he said he would help and as soon as I said he couldn’t use my name publicly, he didn’t do a thing, we never heard from him again but he’s the kind of person who rides on the coattails, he’s interested only in getting a name for himself not for really helping anyone.

TODD:  Now, I know there’s a difference between the United States and Canada, is this something that you think would have been different if it had played out in the States?  Would it have made a difference?

LILLIE:  It probably would have because I have a friend whose son was killed in the States and she wrote to the…oh my goodness, I can’t think…governor, I guess is the head of the state, right?

TODD:  Right.

ERIC:  Yes.

LILLIE:  Okay, so she wrote to the governor and he paid attention and backed her up and her son’s murderer(s) has been caught, I think there was more than one actually.

TODD:  So, if you had their ear, at least, or the courtesy of their attention…?

LILLIE:  Yeah, but they don’t like people who make waves.  You have to say, “Yes sir, no sir.”  And that’s it.

TODD:  Do you think the media might be part of the difference in the United States?  I think that we may have a little bit more of a relentless media back here in the United States than you might have in Canada, and it can be a good thing or a bad thing, just depending on which side of the media attention that you’re on.

ERIC:  Uh huh.

LILLIE:  Yeah, they, the newspapers and TV have been very kind in putting Kathryn-Mary’s story out there…not that’s it done a helluva lot of good, I beg your pardon, a heck of a lot of good doing that but at least they tried.

TODD:  “If you think you can win, you can win.  Faith is necessary for victory.”  William Hazlitt.  Do you think that this case can be resolved?  Do you think there’s still time?

LILLIE:  Before I die, you mean?

TODD:   Yeah.

LILLIE:  I don’t know.  I don’t know.  I’m praying to God there is.

TODD:  Even after, you know, even after.

LILLIE:  Yeah, I’d like to see resolution.  Yeah.

TODD:   Of course you would.

LILLIE:  There’s no closure.  Closure doesn’t exist, but resolution does.

TODD:  So you think it’s possible?

LILLIE:  Anything is possible.

TODD:  But you have a lot of people praying for you, especially tonight, you know there are a lot of people listening who are sending a lot of prayers your way.

LILLIE:  Oh and I love them all so much.

TODD:  And we’re certainly going to ask for that, you know with all the listeners, if there’s anything, any little bit of faith that you can throw your way, we’d certainly appreciate anything to help you out.  But now, you’ve done a lot of things, aside from counseling other people with their problems, with you own case, well don’t you have a garden?

LILLIE:  Oh, the ‘Garden of Tears’.

TODD:   You’ve got a garden.

LILLIE:  Yes, ‘Garden of Tears’.  It’s an international memorial garden.

TODD:  Now where’s this at?

LILLIE:  It’s on my property.

TODD:  Tell me, how did this start?  I think your husband helped you with it?

LILLIE:  Yeah, I said to him that I would like to do a memorial garden and he said, “Okay.”  So we started the garden and he had a heart attack, and so it kind of went by the wayside for awhile, and then this gal came out with her partner and the two of them planted the rest of the garden and we got going from there.  It’s an international memorial garden, it doesn’t cost anything to come here.  I think we’ve already paid a high enough price and we have a memorial wall that has some brass plaques with the names and dates and who misses them, however, that’s a pay for yourself thing and you go direct to the person who does that work and pay them direct.

TODD:  To get your little plaque.

LILLIE:  Yeah, and then we just pick them up and put them on the wall, it’s $17 and change Canadian.

TODD:  And what will I see if I walk in your garden?

LILLIE:  You’ll see some rocks with names, the wall, of course, with names…we have several small ornaments, angels, and we have little houses around in there and animals, jeepers, I can’t think of all the things we have…it’s beautiful, it was just gorgeous this year.

TODD:  That must give you a lot of peace, I think, working on this garden.

LILLIE:  Yeah, I go out…well, I can’t…I have back so I can’t bend over too much, so my friend Patty does most of the gardening and I’m the kind of person who plants a weed instead of a flower, which I did do, but we’re not going to say that out loud.  (Laughter)  But there’s a seating area and people come out sometimes and just go in and sit in the garden for a while and then leave, they don’t have to let me know they’re here, they just go and spend some time in there and I usually see them out there but I never bother them.  I think the garden is an alternative to going to a cemetery, which is all doom and gloom; the garden isn’t, it has some fun things in there as well because no one who died would want us to remain sad all the time, you know?

TODD:  It’s true.

LILLIE:  So, and one section of the garden is set aside, it’s the ‘Garden of Hope’ and that’s for all the missing and unidentified.

TODD:  So you open your heart and your home to so many different people.  Now, unidentified; I know there are probably some in your area.

LILLIE:  Probably, but not advertised that much.  It’s sad.

TODD:   So, are there any unidentified cases that you feel might be connected to your daughter’s crime?

LILLIE:  I don’t know.  They don’t make these things public as much as they should, and for the longest time I was collecting data from the newspapers and finally I had to stop it because I couldn’t handle it any more.  It just got to be too much.

TODD:  Because you’re forever, you know, you will forward an article that you feel like people will benefit from seeing, you’ll forward it to the Cold Cases group, you know, I see a lot of things and if Lillie forwards something, you better read it.  It’s something important and you really need to look at that.

LILLIE:  Well, I’m not pushy about that because, you know, when you have someone complain about an Amber Alert, you never know.

TODD:  Well it’s people that don’t realize what’s behind it, you know, what does it feel like and you know hopefully none of us will never know what you feel like and that’s part of why…

LILLIE:  God, I pray not.

TODD:  A lot of us, and I know you mean that, a lot of us, that’s why we do some of things we do it because we don’t want to know what it feels like and we don’t want anyone else to know and you’ve always held true to that…you don’t want anybody to know what you’ve been through.

LILLIE:  I don’t think there are any words to describe how a grieving person really feels.  I don’t think there are any words to describe that loss, that loneliness, that pain, you know?  It’s just…it’s just too hard.

TODD:  And this online community has helped you cope with this?

LILLIE:  Oh, for sure!  For sure.  I belong to several groups.

TODD:  Yeah, you’re spread quite thin.

LILLIE:  Actually I think 47 groups.

TODD:  How many hours a day do you spend on the Internet?

LILLIE:  Most of them.  (Laughter)

TODD:  Most of them?

LILLIE:  Yeah…

TODD:  So you sit there just about all day long, just…

LILLIE:  Yeah…not this past month.  This past month was especially hard and this month and the next month are going to be hard too so…

TODD:  So birth dates or the dates of death for a lot of your family members has been around this same time period and that’s why, really, we picked this time period for your interview because I was hoping that it would be something that would make you feel better knowing that we care.

LILLIE:  Oh, for sure.

TODD:  You’ve always been there, to be the voice, sometimes a very loud voice, I must say, sometimes, she gets a little unruly but that’s out of passion, you know she’s got a great compassion for this and one that can really get angry when she sees somebody suffering or neglected.  I can say that and I’m sure Eric, we’ve kept him in the silence, we’ve bullied him into silence tonight because we’ve dominated this conversation and I know he’s got questions.

ERIC:  No, it’s fine.  I do have one question I’d like to ask, what’s the population of Abbotsford?

LILLIE:  Oh gosh, you know what, I don’t know anymore; probably 150,000, maybe more.

ERIC:  150,000 individuals?

LILLIE:  Maybe.

ERIC:  Okay maybe, we’re just supposing.  Is it a, because it seems like everybody’s involved in making sure that you’re not going to get any answers.

LILLIE:  Yeah.

ERIC:  And, you know, I just find it very, very hard to believe that there’s nobody there with a conscience, you know, I don’t know if there are any friends of yours that are actually listening tonight who have not revealed themselves to you, that might know something, you know, and I would encourage them to really come forward.  I’m sure that, if nothing else, Todd, they can probably reach you at your website.

TODD:  Yes, of course, and my email address in on the WCAN Radio website, so I’m easily found and you bet I can put you in touch with Shari Greer rather quickly.

ERIC:  Okay, for those listeners, if you’ll just go to the schedule link, you’ll be able to see Todd Matthews there; if you click right on his picture, you’ll be able to come up with his email address.

LILLIE:  Oh, it would be wonderful if someone did that.

TODD:  An answer to a prayer, I’m sure.

LILLIE:  Constant prayer, constant prayer.  Living without knowing is so painful especially when they’re missing, you know, so when I talk to some of these folks who have folks missing children and adults, it’s so painful.

TODD:  Now, she was missing for 2 months…

LILLIE:  Yeah.

TODD:  …before she was found.  Now, that period, you know, a lot of people, when we’ve actually approached people with, “We think we know where you missing loved-one is,” and we have an unidentified body that we ultimately have to match with them, you know, we always think that that is a point of closure for that person because they can actually close down the process of not knowing where they’re at.

LILLIE:  Okay, now that kind of thing…yes.

TODD:  How did that, did that help you, I mean, knowing, did that…?

LILLIE:  Actually, I never really believed it was her until over 20 years later when I finally got a crime-scene photo.

TODD:  It took 20 years?

LILLIE:  Yeah, well I used to wait for her to come home.

TODD:  So you were so…you had actually convinced yourself, for so many years…?

LILLIE:  Well, I wanted to believe that she was still alive.

TODD:  You’d allowed yourself to believe that?


TODD:  Now do you think that there are a lot of other people that are going through the same thing of allowing themselves to believe that?

LILLIE:  Of course there is because it’s easier to believe that than, they’re dead.

TODD:  It’s easier, but any advice?

LILLIE:  (Sighs)

TODD:  Somebody else is sitting in your shoes, maybe not as far down the road as you are, what advice can you offer them?

LILLIE:  Just don’t give up.  Never, ever give up.  Don’t let the police stop looking.  Don’t let your friends stop looking.  Don’t let anybody stop looking.  It’s important that you know where they are.

TODD:  And it’s not necessarily that law enforcement are not doing something in every case, as far as that goes, but they do need to be reminded of how important that this person is to you.

LILLIE:  That’s right and there are a lot of policemen out there with a good heart, a caring heart, there are a lot.  It’s just that a lot don’t have that and unfortunately I deal with them all the time.

TODD:  Well we’re going to have this show in archives so that it can actually be played back again.  I’m working on the archives site at missingpieces.info so there should be a good synopsis and archived there at a very near point in the future and I’m hoping that people will actually be able to use this broadcast to help people see the reality of it.  You know it’s not just reading the words but hearing your voice, and you know, your pleas for help because you’ve really been through a lot with this and still got your hand extended for anybody.  Lillie recently came to Tennessee and met one of her friends and, I regret, I didn’t get to meet her.  I was actually going to and I had looked forward to it for so long, you know, to meet her but I had a lot of deaths in my own family this year and so many circumstances that I didn’t actually get to go meet her and it was difficult because I was ready to go and give her a hug, you know, for the first time and that will be something, I tell you, that I will regret probably when I’m old and grey.  I’ll wish that I could have but you know that I think that with that and my grandfather passed away, you know we had a really good relationship, but I always think I didn’t try hard enough.  I could have made this happen, I could have been there more, everybody goes through that and I know you probably went through that with your case.

LILLIE:  Uh huh.

TODD:  Do you feel like there was anything that you could have done?

LILLIE:  I should have been more assertive in the beginning but at that time in my life, I was everybody’s doormat so, you know, I just laid down and they wiped their feet and now I am the exact opposite.

TODD:  You’re turning your regrets into…you’re changing it.

LILLIE:  Oh, for sure.  Yeah, because if I were to focus on those regrets then I’d lose my focus on what’s got to be.

TODD:  So you’re looking at it in a very positive way.  I can’t think of anybody else that’s as positive as you are and such a light, you know, you would think I would go to Shari and just feel sad, you know with what you’ve been through but when I talk to you, I walk away feeling glad and happy and that’s what you put forth.  You’ve done it so well.

LILLIE:  That’s sweet of you to say that.

TODD:  Well, it’s the absolute truth and I just can’t think of anybody that’s been like you.  Now, your husband, how has he helped you cope with this before he passed away, and like you said, it’s been 2 years this week?

LILLIE:  Yeah, he had Lou Gehrig’s disease, ALS, and prior to his illness, he went to all meetings to the police with me and went to the memorial that I held for my kids and the missing woman downtown, east-side Vancouver and my husband was just there, totally there for me, so he encouraged me in everything I did.

TODD:  I really thought, 2 years ago, when he passed away…I didn’t know if you would be able to bounce back, but you did.

LILLIE:  (Sighs)

TODD:  I don’t know how you did it, but you did it.

LILLIE:  I told you, I believe in God.

TODD:  Well it worked.  It definitely worked.

LILLIE:  I miss him wretchedly though.

TODD:  How close are you to Vancouver, British Columbia?

LILLIE:  About 60 miles.

TODD:  About 60 miles.  Now, soon we’re going to talk about another case that happened in that area that involved a lot of woman, a serial killing, it’s not connected to your case, I’m sure.

LILLIE:  Willie Pickton, you’re talking about.

TODD:  Willie Pickton.  We’re going to talk to Wayne Leng with that case.  He’s also a good friend of yours.

LILLIE:  Yeah, he is too, and I’ve actually had hugs from Wayne.

TODD:  Oh yeah, he’s listening tonight and we’re going to have him on in a couple of weeks.  But now the Pickton case, with the missing prostitutes that were murdered, now what involvement have you had with this case?  Now I know you’ve been involved in this.

LILLIE:  Well, my involvement is minimal.  I’m just there actually for anyone who wants support.  I can’t do any legwork for them or anything like that so, you know, I’ve only run across one person that was not a pleasant person with all of that so I’ve been very lucky I guess.  They’re wonderful, wonderful families and those women should not be remembered as prostitutes, they should be remembered as people.

TODD:  We’re working on that.


TODD:  There are a lot of memorials with those cases.  There are some bodies that have never been recovered.  We, even on Cold Cases, we had one of the ladies that were presumed missing and murdered in relation to that, that actually gave us an email and we put her back in contact with law enforcement in that area so that she could say, “I’m here, I’m still alive.”  That’s something that we can talk about a little later too, but Shari was right there with me with that when we got that unusual email that day.

LILLIE:  Yeah, that was so awesome.  That was so awesome.

TODD:  Because she was alive, you know and it was amazing but I know that that’s so close to you and you’ve been there and I don’t know how there was room left in your world for something like this and that’s such a huge case all on it’s own and it’s in trial right now.  Are you following the trial?

LILLIE:  The trial hasn’t happened yet.  They’re just picking the jury now.

TODD:  Yeah, the jury selection.

LILLIE:  Yeah, so I don’t know how long that’s going to be.

TODD:  Do you have any thought at all that could be a connective crime in any way?

LILLIE:  I don’t know.  I wish I did.  I wish I could say, “Yes, he did it,” and that it would be over for me but I can’t say that, I don’t know.  I don’t know.  It wouldn’t surprise me.

TODD:  No, definitely not.


TODD:  Because usually a serial killer starts somewhere.

LILLIE:  Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me, but I don’t know.

TODD:  Eric, have you got anything?

ERIC:  Well, you know something, Todd, this has been quite an emotional broadcast that we’ve had and I’m glad we’ve got a lot of people out there listening, you know, because this show is not meant as entertainment but it’s meant to help somebody bring closure, you know, bring some semblance of understanding as to why and what happened.  You know, a lot of times people are totally oblivious to what is going on simply because it hasn’t touched their lives, but I think a show like this, especially because of a lot of out listeners are new to this, even as I’m new to it and everyday Tuesday it bring us to that position of wanting to embrace our children; if they’re not with us, contacting them and finding out how they’re doing and all I can do is say, Shari, I’m just glad you’ve taken the time out to really express the feeling that you do have.  You now, you’re right, a lot of us don’t know what you’re going through.

LILLIE:  And you know what, I’m awfully glad they don’t.

ERIC:  I understand.

TODD:   She means that with all her heart.  Again, give us the Abbotsfords Police phone number.

LILLIE:  (604) 859-5225

TODD:  Okay, and you can also contact us through the station, my email address at the station.  Anyway you want, contact us through the website, you know feel free to do so if you have anything that could possibly help in this case, any bit of information.  As you see, for this woman, it could mean everything.  It could mean an entire change in her life, completely, and I think she deserves it so much.  She’s prayed so hard for it.  I know you have and I hope if we can get something for you; we won’t stop trying.

LILLIE:  I know that and I appreciate it.  I love you so much.

TODD:  If I outlive you, I will always remember you and try to do something with this and encourage it and promote it, and I love you very much.

LILLIE:  I love you too.  Eric, thank you.

ERIC:  You’re quite welcome, you know, all of the WCAN family wants to make you welcome to always be able to bring your story to our listeners.  This is the reason why we are actually here; it’s just so that stories, such as yours, can actually get out.

LILLIE:  It’s incredible what you guys are doing.

ERIC:  Well, you know, and if I can tell you this to kind of change the subject a little bit, when we first started out doing this we weren’t sure if we could really do this, the cost was enormous and we just weren’t sure if we could sustain it and, like you said, believing in God, has made it all that much more possible.  We’re reaching area as far as Australia.

LILLIE:  He’s not a miracle worker for nothing.

ERIC:  Yes, that’s right.

TODD:  And you’re reaching the world.  You said you were speaking to States, you’re actually speaking to the world.  You can be tuned in anywhere.

ERIC:  Yes.

TODD:  A lot of people have said, “I can’t pick it up in my area, it doesn’t reach very far,” and I thought it reaches farther than most radio stations

LILLIE:  Uh huh.

TODD:  You can talk to the world easily and I think you’ve done so tonight.

LILLIE:  So now I’m really nervous.

ERIC:  Well, I’m glad you got nervous towards the end of the show.

TODD:  It’s too late now for that, but I’m having you back.  We’re definitely going to have you back because there are so many different areas and as the subject changes a little bit and hopefully with some new information, if that happens in the near future; we hope that it does, we’re definitely going to have you back and talk about it again.  We will have questions that will be emailed that will help build another visit with you.  I don’t think we’re going to have any trouble going for an hour.

LILLIE:  I guess not, we have now, haven’t we?

TODD:  Well that’s one of the questions that was first presented to me when we were working on putting this together, “Can we sustain an hour?”  I don’t think we’ve had a problem yet, I don’t think we will have a problem.

LILLIE:  I don’t think so.

TODD:  There’s just too much too much data in here and just so much, and there are things about Shari that we’ve not even touched today.

LILLIE:  Uh oh, that’s scary.


TODD:  It’s true, we’ve not even got there yet and there’ll be a time and a place but the most important thing was we helped her present her children and I think we can definitely pray for you.

LILLIE:  Thank you baby.  I love you.

TODD:  And I do you too.

ERIC:   Listen, we want to thank everybody for having tuned in.  We want to thank our host Todd Matthews.  Now again, he’s founder of The Lost and the Found Global Research Center.  You’ll find him on our webpage, go to schedule links and you’ll be able to send him an email.  Let him know what you think about the show.  We want to thank Shari Greer, which is better known as Lillie, for having shared her story with us and we’re going to bid each of you goodnight.  Our prayers are with each of you.

TODD:  Thank you.

LILLIE:  Thank you.

ERIC:  You’re welcome.

TODD:  Goodnight.

ERIC:  Okay we want to thank our listening audience for staying tuned with us, you know it’s been quite a show…it’s been quite a show.  Again, I’ll probably go home and want to call the family, see how everybody’s doing.  You know I’m sure that they have listened in on some of this programming and I tell you, it’s just the time that we live in.

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By Cassidy Olivier - Kamloops This Week - October 19, 2007

Police had eyed same suspect in Merritt death and unsolved 1970s child slayings in Abbotsford

Seven years ago, officers investigating two cold-case murders in Abbotsford confirmed to Black Press the name of a suspect they believed may also have killed Monica Jack — the 12-year-old girl who disappeared in May 1978 while riding her bike home along Nicola Lake near Merritt.

The similarities in the murders, combined with the suspect's criminal record — which included multiple rape convictions — left police thinking they had the right guy.

But, unable to prove anything, the suspect, in his 50s, was left to walk free and was last reported to be living in Ontario.

Meanwhile, the murders of Kathryn Mary Herbert (11 years old when murdered in 1975), Theresa Hildebrandt (15 years old when slain in 1976) and Jack remain unsolved, although their remains have since been recovered.

However, with the recent addition of Jack's name to the probe of women suspected of having gone missing along the so-called Highway of Tears between Prince George and Prince Rupert, new questions arise regarding the scope of the trail, as well as whether police are closing in on a suspect or suspects.

In Prince George last week, Mounties announced the list of women believed to have gone missing along the infamous stretch of highway had been increased from nine to 18. Included on the list were names of missing woman from the Kamloops area.

If police still believe the man suspected of killing Herbert and Hildebrandt is also responsible for Jack's death, the Highway of Tears then potentially stretches much farther than police initially thought — down to the U.S. border in the Fraser Valley.

It also means a potential suspect may be within reach of the law.

However, the possible connection between the three deaths and the implication this would have on the investigation isn't something Sgt. Pierre Lemaitrie of the RCMP's E Division major-crime section is willing to discuss.

Due to the sensitivity of the probe, he told KTW this week that he doesn't want to go near the topic of suspects for fear it will compromise the investigation.

Lemaitrie would not elaborate on why the announcement was made last week, other than to say the task force had decided it was time to provide the public with an update on the investigation into the Highway of Tears murders and other slayings now believed to have links.

"If we have suspects, that is not something the task force is willing to talk about openly," Lemaitroe said. "There are just some things we need to protect. We don't want to give a suspect a head start."

He did, however, say police have been inundated with tips following the Prince George conference, leading him to comment that the probe looks "promising."

Lemaitrie said a further update will not likely be made for at least another month or until there is a breakthrough in the investigation.

Along with Jack, police last week added the following murders to the Highway of tears probe: Gale Weys, killed in Clearwater in 1973; Pamela Darlington, found dead in Kamloops in 1973; and Maureen Mosie, found dead in Kamloops in 1981.

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Aired: March 25, 2006
Kathryn's Murder Remains Unsolved,
Even After 31 Years
Guest: Shari "Lillie" Greer
Mother of "Kathryn Mary Herbert"