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(Introduction to show begins)

TODD (Host - Missing Pieces): Tonight's guest on Missing Pieces is an old friend of mine; Patti Star, from Lexington, Kentucky. How are you doing tonight, Patti?

PATTI (Guest): I'm doing great, Todd, how are you?

TODD: Doin' good, long time, no hear.

PATTI: Yes, but I always keep in touch by going and checking to see what you're up to.

TODD: Well, I do the same. I check your pages out, and of course we have the occasional e-mail.

PATTI: Right.

TODD: We first crossed paths years back. I was actually looking for a good time in Kentucky, and I found Patti. I think a lot of people have done that.

PATTI: Oh my God! (laughter)

TODD: What I was actually looking for, of course with the Tent Girl case, I've become really familiar with Kentucky and traveled back and forth quite a bit, and I know you heard of the case at that point in time, but I was kind of looking for kind of an adventure one summer. This is Halloween, episode, and we wanted something a little bit fun. Normally we've got the dark and dismal, but we're going to cross into that some too, but I was looking for a ghost story and I saw all the wonderful ghost stories and I found the case of the lady who danced herself to death. At the same time I found Patti Star. Patti Star is a paranormal researcher,  and she's one of the real things. I know there's a lot of people put there that do some things, but Patti actually teaches a course. Where do you teach this course, Patti?

PATTI:  Well, I teach an intro course and also an advanced course. I teach at the Bluegrass Community and Technical collage in Lexington, Kentucky, and I also have a ghost hunter's shop and every Saturday and Sunday I teach classes. I teach an intro on the Saturday and advanced on Sunday and that keeps me really busy.

TODD: Now, how do you get to the point where you actually teach this as a college course?

PATTI:  Now, Let me just make this straight. It is not a credited course. It's one of those continuing education for adults' courses.  So it's like a lot of these community colleges, they may offer geology, or cake baking, or how to do a massage, things like that, and how to be a ghost hunter type deal, so it is a continuing education course and not a credited course.

TODD: Good, I wanted to clear that point up with everybody, and I think you have an online course.

PATTI:  Yes, I do. Now, the online course has been very successful. It when people can't actually come to Lexington, so what they do is order the course and it has every possible tool, I think, imaginable that you might use as a beginner for ghost hunting, and then it has a notebook of instructions of what to do from the very beginning, all the way through to the end, including your three investigations, your exams, and then getting your diploma. I have a gold seal diploma that I send out to the people that complete the course, and then, of course, it certified them, and they also receive a book, a ghost manual, a DVD on dowsing, they receive dowsing rods, they receive EMF meters, so it's a pretty good package.

TODD: Wow, and you can find everything about Patti on www.GhostHunter.com and we have to think, "Now, what would a paranormal researcher have done with our normal topic?" Well, there is a lot, of course, we have the "Lady who Danced Herself to Death" which was a Jane Doe, and when I was finding her, I was finding Patti at the same time, so, this is like over one hundred and sixty years ago, a lady actually, and you can see this on the website, www.MissingPieces.info, there was like a resort area in the now downtown Harrodsburg, Kentucky, so it was just a wonderful place at that point in time. It was before the Civil War. A lady actually, supposedly danced herself to death, and there's been this incredible urban legend around it because she registered under a false name, it wasn't her real name. I was interested, so, I need to call this Patti Starr, so we started talking about it, and I actually met Patti and her husband, Chuck. They met me in Harrodsburg.

PATTI:  That's right. We did. It was such a beautiful day, that day, and the scenery, where you could see the area where, supposedly, the building was that she had danced. It was up on that hill, and then just walking through, it was really a very picturesque, and also very calm and peaceful place. I could see why she would want to come there.

TODD: Of course all the buildings are gone now, replaced by a huge park. The only physical evidence we have this aside for the urban legend itself, is an old grave with the epitaph - "Hollowed And Hushed Be The Place Of The Dead, Speak Softly, Bow Head". This is at the actual grave of the lady who danced herself to death, near the front edge of the park. I met Patti there and we actually looked at some of the tools of her trade. Patti, what were we actually looking for that day on that spot where legend proclaims as place of paranormal event?

PATTI: I dowsed and we actually picked up quite a bit of information. For one thing I didn't know where the actual building stood, and as I took the dowsing rods pointed in the direction of the building. I didn't know as much as you did about the case. I think it was interesting that from the grave the dowsing rods pointed to where she probably really did take her last dance.

TODD: It's crazy that as many times as I've been back and forth from the Lexington area, that I'd never heard of Patti before, and she was quite well known in that area, and I'd passed by this grave in Harrodsburg all these times. I was going back and forth, trying to investigate the Tent Girl case. I passed right by this grave, and it was a reality, and now we have her on the Doe Network. So she's actually a real Jane Doe listed on the website, and the funny thing is that we're trying to use genealogy; I've looked through a lot of genealogy sites trying to find a connection.
REFERENCE: Doe case 265usky

PATTI:  Yes, that helps, that helps tremendously.

TODD: Well, it helps you guys too because the things you do are historical, and I saw you as sort of a historical type. High into that type of thing, and of course I was interested with what you can come up with. I'll have to go back there with you again. I wanted to see if the ghost of the legend, you know, you can go at certain times and you're supposedly able to see the ghost of this girl dance, once again, in the moonlight, and, of course, we didn't see anything, and I did go back again and didn't see anything. I would've loved to have seen something. Some type of physical evidence, that something exists, and I think we all want to believe, to see proof with your own eyes that there's something beyond.

PATTI:  And you know what really happens with the more modern-day ghost hunters, we have the infrared cameras, we have the infrared thermometers, we have the different types of EMF meters, we have meters that detect AC and DC currents. A lot of times these instruments won't actually prove that there is a ghost or spirit there, but, but when they react and show and abnormal reading, you want to pay attention. You want to try to visually figure out what is really going on. I always tell people that I don't really have proof that ghosts exist, but I sure do have a lot of evidence. I don't know if we will ever be able to prove they exist, but I don't think we'll be able to prove they don't exist either.

TODD: Can you tell us what an EMF meter actually is?

PATTI:  Ok, an EMF meter stands for Electro-Magnetic Field and each of us have our own electro-magnetic field, and we have our own frequency, even inanimate objects have their own electro-magnetic fields. We also feel like the energy of a spirit or ghost has this electro-magnetic field, as well. And sometimes when those spirits come around, that field can be a little bit different, stronger, and it will actually cause the EMF meter to spike, and so what we want to do is pay attention to that. Just to give you another example, some people can see that electro-magnetic field around people, and they see it in color, or either they see it in energy, and they call it an aura, and it's basically the same thing as that electro-magnetic field that covers us, and that's what we pay attention to. You know, like, sometimes people say, "Oh, I walked into this house and I got really, a creepy feeling and the hairs just came up on the back of my neck, and I found out later that someone had committed suicide there. I didn't even know that. "Well, basically I tell people, not only does that hair rising up on the back of your neck, there's a scientific reason for that, as well. Sometimes when the ghost gets close it bumps into your magnetic field, and as it's magnetic field touches, there's a little bit of irregularity and it starts to vibrate a little differently, and it causes you to say " Woo, what just happened? " and the hair rises up on the back of your neck. So it can be a little bit scientific, as well as paranormal.

TODD: Well, this is one case I actually got to, you know, actually try to enjoy a little bit because it had this urban legend about it, but yet it was still within my field, and that was a Jane Doe, and I got to meet you, and watching you do your type of work. You had all of these interesting tools; I was fascinated with your work and genealogy. How does one get into this? How did you get started?

PATTI:  Oh, becoming a Ghost Hunter?

TODD: Yeah, you had to of had an experience.

PATTI:  Well, when I was really young I would see things and I'd tell my parents, and they'd go, "Oh, Honey, you were dreaming, that didn't happen. You didn't see that person, you didn't hear those children." Because I came from a very strict, Southern-Baptist background, my parents were very religious. They went to church many times during the week and on the weekends, so they were very guarded, you know the old thoughts were that if you ever got involved in any of this you were in cahoots with the devil. I am so glad that a lot of those thoughts have changed now. For me, I just sort of had to put a cap on it and not look at it, or try to develop it, but as I got older it got stronger and it got to the point where I said to myself, "This is NOT my imagination." Then I ended up working for a company and I managed several of their stores, one in particular was a "Casual Corner" etc. At that time they gave personality test to their executives, basically just to see if we were honest and upright. I always passed the psycho logic tests with flying colors. So I knew I wasn't crazy, if I were it would definitely have shown up in those tests. So I decided to start paying more attention to the paranormal as I got older. I would have visitations (from the other side) children and teenagers that had passed come to me, victims of car accidents, often they would just say things to me and then be gone, I'd never see them again. So after that I wondered if it were possible for others to see and hear what I did. So I decided to start taking pictures, and carry around my tape recorder. I have gotten so many wonderful voices...one really good one recently.

TODD: Tell us about it.

PATTI:  This particular voice I had my class, my advanced class, when we finish the class on Sunday, we do a ghost investigation there where my Ghost Shop is because it's haunted and we're going around a corner and you'll hear me say, " Oh, and this is our favorite room, the lounge, " and I kinda laugh because I'm making a funny and right after I laughed you hear this male voice say, "Look Behind You, " and it sounds just like that and I turned around really quickly and I looked at the students and I said, " Okay, who whispered, because we know it's a no-no to whisper during a ghost investigation if you have anything to say you say it out loud. They all denied whispering and when we all heard that we were just jumping for joy, because, you know, we made contact using science, the tape recorder and I heard it with my natural ears and brought it together and that's what I hoped to achieve during my ghost investigation, I want to bring the science together with the sensitive together so it'll work.

TODD: Sort of what we do, look for clues. People get desperate; you're willing to do just anything...

PATTI:  You are.

TODD: To try to make contact. Now, I've got so many questions, enough for 6 hours! What do you say if somebody said, " Patti, you're crazy, this doesn't make any sense at all. Why are you doing this?" What do you say to something like that? Or, "This is evil. Don't you understand that you're playing with the devil? "And I know you hear it.

PATTI:  I do, but, you know what? I don't hear as much as I thought I would, but occasionally I do have somebody that is just very adamant about what I'm doing is totally not cool, that I'm being fooled, that the Devil is causing me to see these things and I guess until you walk a mile in that man's shoes, it's really hard for you to judge, and the one thing that even in my class I tell my students, when you look at someone, you might not agree with how they believe, you might not agree how they dress, you may not agree in how they react to society, instead of saying, " You're wrong, " and, " You're right, " just say that they're different, and then you can still appreciate them as human beings because even thought you may not like someone, they still have something to offer you, something to make you a better person, teach you something. We all have value. We all have God within us so if you look at everyone and you search for that you'll find that and, therefore, you'll stop judging, and once you stop judging, oh my gosh, the potential for all of us is so great and so wonderful and if you can just say, " Well, they're different," and not, " They're wrong and I'm right, " then we can all get along a lot better, but, I basically, when people say, " You're just crazy, I would never do that. " I say, "If I could do one thing, if I could just share with people what I've learned, my experiences, and my photos and videos and audio so they can hear what I've heard. If I could just change that fear into compassion and understanding for these spirits, that would be so wonderful. We would change the whole concept of what the spirit world has to offer. Not Hollywood's interpretation of what the spirit world is. It's all evil and demonic and it makes them a lot of monkey when they sell these horror movies, but it's not like that at all, I was so disappointed when they made that movie "White Noise " because it started out with the real equipment, but then, of course, the movie started turning to the dark side and then it got evil and demonic and that poor guy was killed by the demons, I was so disappointed.

TODD: Yeah it kind of took a darker turn it was exciting at first and I thought, "Wow, this is going to be interesting and made one want to look into the subject.

PATTI:  Yeah, because a lot of the very beginning was very, very real. I was so excited, and I thought, "Finally people can see what it is that I do!" Then it went on the indicate that people were messing in things that they should not.

TODD: The real version and the Hollywood version often differ.

PATTI:  We could just learn so much from these spirits, and these ghosts. Some of them are in very low, low levels, some are in higher levels, and not only sometimes when we do investigations, and we think we're picking up ghosts, I'm finding out that not always, but sometimes there's an angel present or a spirit guide present and they can actually come through, and it's amazing.

TODD: Now why would somebody, if somebody's passed away by whatever means, why would they come back?

PATTI: Why would they come back?

TODD: Yeah, I always hear about "unfinished business."

PATTI:  Different, different, different reasons. Some people, when they die, let's say they're killed immediately, they don't realize that they've passed. So, I'll just give you an example. Let's say a lady drops her kids off at school, she kisses them, and says, " Okay, Baby, I'll pick you up at three o' clock, as soon as school's off.," she enters the highway and BAM, this big truck hits her, kills her instantly, but in her reality she's still driving home, and she gets home, and for twenty years she cleans the house waiting for three o' clock to come, but it never comes, because time is different.

TODD: Time doesn't mean anything there; it's not a linear time frame.

PATTI:  Right, and then occasionally, when the moon's right and the Earth is on it's axis at a different degree, and the solar weather is active, all of the sudden she may turn around and see someone else in her home that's actually living there now and she thinks she's seeing a ghost, because she doesn't realize she's

TODD: And there's another popular movie where they outline this very thing.

PATTI:  Oh, Yeah, "The Others."

TODD: What did you think about that movie?

PATTI:  You know, I hadn't see it, and I didn't go see it on the big screen, and every time I would explain this to my students they'd say, " Oh, you gotta go see The Others" and I was like, "Well, don't tell me about it. "

TODD: Well, if you haven't seen it, you need to go see it.

PATTI:  Yeah, what they're talking about really hits that, and so that's why that person stays in the Earth's plane. Another reason, sometimes, is, and I found this out through dowsing and asking the yes and no questions. Sometimes people are confused, and they are like, "Oh my gosh what do I do now? I thought this was the end." Their religion taught them that when you die, you die, that's it, and so they're like, " Oh my gosh, " and they see the light and they're kind of afraid of the light because they realize that maybe they didn't live the life they should, and if they go through the light, maybe that means judgment, and if they didn't live the life that they thought they should then maybe they'll be judged to Hell and they're afraid of Hell, so maybe they'll just stay here on Earth's plane (of existence)

TODD: Well, they're confused.

PATTI:  Yeah, that could be the case, and then they remain, they won't complete their journey. Now, some people that maybe have died a little too soon, and that'll happen, and like, that had a lesson to learn, and they haven't learned it yet so they stay on the Earth's plane, and they find someone who was going through something very similar to what they were going through and they watch them, and sort of learn from their reaction and what happened, whether it's weather they react to it properly or improperly or what ever they'll still learn that lesson. Once they learn that lesson, they'll go. Sometimes, like you said, it is unfinished business, sometimes its concern about a loved one, sometimes it's an addiction, now, not always, but sometimes, it's an addiction. Sometimes they just can't let go of it, whether it be an alcohol, or job, or sex, or whatever their addiction is, that even then, they don't want to go across, so what they'll do is, they'll find someone that has that same addiction and kind of hang out with them so that they could continue to have that feeling. Oh my gosh, I could just go on. I told somebody one say, I said, "I could write a book about all the different reasons they stay behind.

TODD: Well, in my world, in the world where I work with missing and unidentified, we've all had this question, if they can talk, why don't these people see that they have family members looking for them? Why can't they just tell us, or give us a message and lead us to the point, or is it just totally irrelevant to them?

PATTI:  Well, I, this is just my theory, ok?

TODD: A theory, that's what we're looking for.

PATTI:  Yeah, this is my theory, a lot of times when we lose a loved one through something so drastic where we don't find them, they're missing people, they've become a John Doe, or whatever. That person made like a pact before they came to Earth that they would be one of these victims, because everybody that they touch, they're gonna teach them something. I'm sure that you have learned so many valuable lessons from this work that you are doing, you have probably learned you are a lot more sensitive that you initially though, if you've been actually able to develop maybe some psychic sensory and you have opened your mind and increased your techniques of helping find people. You probably have a more open mind to things you might never have studied, like genealogy. So see, they have a purpose and they affect everyone in a different way, it all happens for a reason. I think a lot of the times when these things happen to people, especially children, young and so innocent. I think that they agreed to have this happen because it's gonna to effect the doctors, the police officers, the people that are searching, the family. It's gonna effect all these people in a way and it's gonna teach a lesson rather trying to stop it right away, it's just all fits like a puzzle and they created the puzzle so they're just laying in wait for everybody to learn their lessons before it's a done deal.

TODD: A much greater plan.


TODD: Because I have actually experienced things where I was like, "I don't know why this happened," and then, many years later you think, "Wow!" That almost sounded like that was planned!" Something that took several years; but now it makes sense, but I would never knowingly have created a plan that would take that long to come to full circle, but I was living it the whole time, I just didn't realize it.

PATTI:  That's right; it's like living in the now. Sometimes we are so concerned about the past, and afraid of the future, and because we live in that we don't even really notice what's happening to us like right now, and
it's so important to grab hold of the now and live there. It's very difficult, very difficult to do that.

TODD: A lot of times people get desperate when dealing with great pain. With the Tent Girl case, for some reason it became very obsessive with me, I really don't know why, but it was as close to what I would call a haunting that I can describe, so there was things that I might not even tell for years that happened. I thought that I was beginning to lose my mind; I really did, I thought, "This has got me so obsessed that I'm really starting to lose my grip." I did go to a psychic; I went to a psychic that was here in town. This was early on in the whole thing because I would mention it to other people, older people, and there's this girl and she's unidentified, and I'm starting to get a little to connected with it and when I start pulling away from it, bad things start happening to me, and I'm not talking about bad things like you see a monster back in the mirror, but you start getting these terribly intense depressed feelings, just constant. Something that felt just like a haunting feeling, it's just a terrible feeling, and then when I would go back to it, I'd have the frustration of trying to get through it. The psychic told me the answer lay inside myself, and at the time I wasn't sure what that meant, but then 10 years later, I was able to make the connection that led to the identification of the Tent Girl.

PATTI:  And look what good you've created. You created an organization, you've got it out on the Internet and through your effort, more and more people are being identified and brought back to their families.

TODD: Oh, there's a lot of people involved that effort to find those other people, there's a great number of people involved in the creation of the organizations that we work with, but the Internet helped us connect to each other, because I thought, " Well, I'm a lonely person, I found you and others through the Internet. I found some great friends through the Internet, and I thought, "Well, that's the end," but it wasn't the end. Here it is, eight years later and it's still evolving and changing, and life's not over and I see myself changing. Okay, now, I didn't have children when I started, now, I've got children, my oldest son is fourteen.

PATTI: (Gasp) Oh my gosh! I can't believe it's been that long!

TODD: It's been that long, and I've got a young son, five years old now.

PATTI:  Oh my Gosh, I remember him being in a stroller he was so little.

TODD: Time passes and you see yourself moving at different stages of your life. My grandfather passed away a couple of years ago; I had an experience when he died. It was an incredible feeling that morning, I knew. You get that feeling that something's wrong.

PATTI: Right.

TODD: And I go to work at 4:45 in the morning, and, you know, I'm there early. My brother goes at the same time that I go in to the day job, and I said, "Something's just not right today." He knew it, and, you know, we just had that sick feeling, and by 6:00 we got the call. They had found him, and you just can't imagine. I couldn't have drove, and I've always been the strong one and the one that becomes the leader and, "Okay, we need to do this and we need to do that." If my brother Mark hadn't have been there, I don't know what I would've done, because I don't think I could've drove. I mean, I didn't break completely down, but I was weak and didn't know what I was gonna do, and he took me home, but it was just full circle, because then we buried him next to my grandmother, and it was that day that we buried him, it was full circle, and now they're together. I knew it, and I had already seen this so many times in visions ahead. One day, we'll put them back together, and they'll be together again. Then it's just like you find yourself standing where you knew you would be one day, and then I've done it, so that phase of my life had just flipped another page, and now, after the Tent Girl was over, that presence is gone. I didn't feel her anymore; it was just as if a thief in the night had passed away. No more feeling of her.

PATTI:  Yeah

TODD: I begin to feel for the others that were unidentified, needing help. So, then I find people like you, because I'm looking for every answer possible.

PATTI:  Yes, of course.

TODD: It makes me think about the people that have missing family members that actually would consider hiring a psychic to help them find their missing loved one.

PATTI:  Right.

TODD: I know that there's probably a good way and a bad way of doing this, because I've heard of psychics that have actually helped solve real crimes.

PATTI:  Yeah, and it makes me feel really good as to how open law enforcement is open to this and they're very cautious, but yet, in another sense, sometimes a psychic might not be able to lead them right to where they need to be able to go, but sometimes they can take some of their clues and incorporate them with things that they've already got within the case, and that just helps maybe shed a different light, and it helps them to maybe take a different view or, maybe go a little bit deeper in a personality or whatever, and so it really pleases me. I like that court T.V. and Lifetime they have crimes solved by psychics and things like that on there, and it is so great the way these police officers have been so open and really paid attention to these psychics, I think it's great.

TODD: Well, the thought is that they want to hire a private detective, but, you know, maybe you just get some clues rather than the complete solution.

PATTI: Sometimes that's what it takes. I know sometimes I'll be running around and doing things and I've misplaced something and I'll get just really frazzled and I freak out. But if I just sit down and calm myself down and just start thinking about backing up and getting a few clues ahead and thinking about where I was and what I was doing and that type of thing and it'll come to me and then I'm fine and I'll find whatever I need and sometimes I get that way with cases, you find the public wants it solved, the police want it solved and the mayor wants it solved and the official in charge finds he'd under a tremendous amount of pressure, all eyes are upon them. And I'm loving the fact that they're more open that and they are, and a lot of times it helps for a psychic to get involved and to help the officers, and you know all this happens for a reason because sometimes it helps for these officers to realize that they themselves, have a lot of psychic abilities but they don't realize it.

TODD: But, they have an intuition.

PATTI:  Yes! They do!

TODD: People get into the roles that they need to be in.

PATTI:  Absolutely, and I saw a program not too long ago, I thought it was on the Discovery Channel where this very highly psychic lady went in and she took five or six police officers and she gave them a pen and paper and an envelope of something and she told them just to relax and take a few deep breaths before they got started and just put your hand on the paper and draw whatever you feel and then everybody drew something that was in that photo. It was incredible, and they're all like, " WOAH, " and she says, " You know, there's so many of us out there that all of us have the psychic ability, it's just in the way that we look at them, and the way that we address them, and the way that we develop relationships with the investigator. I'm like a paranormal investigator, but I do a lot of the same similar things that detective or a coroner, or anyone that has to research and search for information. I do the same type of thing. I love it so.

TODD: Well, I felt a real kinship with you when I first met you and I thought, " Wow, she likes to write and I like to write and...."

PATTI:  Oh, Yes.

TODD: When there's so many things that crossed over and we were all curious for that answer. What advise might you have, and I don't want to encourage family members to go out and look for a psychic and try to find their clues, what else could they do, because it sounds like so much paranormal investigation, but maybe like a little self help course for you, a little bit of therapy, because it does sound like a therapy, it's like well, I think I'll learn how to cook, and I'll learn a little bit more about this, I want to reach into myself a little bit, it sounds like you have a common technique.

PATTI: Well, I think eastern religion. Looks at death, prepares for death. They have rituals for death. Western philosophy is like oooh, death is taboo. Let's don't talk about death. Let's don't talk about dying. Let's don't talk about.

TODD: Oh, yes. That's what I'm talking about. They really know.

PATTI: And they don't look at it; where in what I do we. It has been the most rewarding thing for me, because now I don't. I'm not afraid of that death now. I'm not looking forward to the physical part because you never
know how you're going to go. You know what I'm saying?

TODD: Yeah. Yeah.

PATTI: I don't know if I'm looking. Not looking forward to that, but at least I know that at one time I was just terrified of death. You know? But as I've learned through the spirits and communicated with the spirit world. There's something else out there, and it's great. It's wonderful.

TODD: Well, in my work I've learned to come to terms with the physical part of death. It's, we see that. And it's not terrifying. I've had to examine graves before. I remember the first time I did it. I can not do this because in science, in biology, and school. I'm admitting here that I cheated. I didn't switch places with my lab partner. I kept taking notes for both semesters, and let him do the dissecting. Well, he's now a biology teacher, and now I lecture the Biology students at the school with him. I tell them this is how we cheated, and this is why you shouldn't do it. Because I might have been a little more prepared for what I was going to have to do later in life. Can you believe it? I didn't even touch it at the time, and I couldn't deal with the touching something dead. And I think when I would touch something dead, you get this feeling in you; you can almost feel the death in it. You don't like it. That's not what I want to feel but when I had to exhume this one grave, and I had to think about it the night before because I knew death, but I realized I have too. I think it's needed, and then you get the "shouldn't disturb the grave" type feeling. Are you doing the right thing, by doing this, and I think I knew I had too, and I knew that it was the right thing to do because there were the living that were concerned with the cause of the death of this person. And the living are important too, but now. Have you ever been approached by anybody that had like an unsolved murder or a missing person?

PATTI: I have done a cold case investigation, and I doubt and I get some information and who the person was. It was a murder case back in the 70s where a mother was left home, and the grandfather was with her, but he wasn't with her when she got killed though. And the son and her 2-year old daughter were out in the field, and they a farm, and she was shot in the back. And it was ruled a suicide, and I could tell she was shot three times, and she was a person. And it was, I'm not going to give any location or anything. I can go ahead. I got the initial J, and that eventually it was an ex-husband. See he's still alive, and the thing of it is in the report. We go the police report. It just said shot in the back. It didn't say how many times she was shot, and so, but, in the newspaper report it said that the neighbors heard three shots. So, that verifies some of the stuff we picked up while we were there.

TODD: So people should ponder if they decide to try this if they just to entertain there own minds when there in such strain and stress. They should go into it with realistic expectations. That probably will not get a verbatim outline of what happened, but you might get clues.

PATTI: Right about clues. And I was very careful when I was telling the family. I gave them. I actually got a name, but I just gave them an initial. It really was very adamant about being the ex-husband that sees; that person was still alive, and because I didn't have any physical evidence, there was no way I was going to tell the family. There was just no way.

TODD: So one has to hold some thing back at times?

PATTI: Yes, because I mean I couldn't put myself in that position, but I did give that she was shot three times is obviously not a suicide. And I think that was the main concern that the family had. No one wants to be told that a family member has just committed suicide, that there's so many misunderstandings about suicide even. In some religions and some teach that if you commit suicide you go directly to Hell and you don't stop and collect two-hundred dollars. You go directly to Hell, and so there's a lot of misconceptions about that. And I think people just have such a fear; they don't want to hear that their son or daughter or mother or whoever has committed suicide. It's just horrible.

TODD: So even if they did commit suicide; I've noticed that people shouldn't have been suicide because they knew better, than to do that. So it had to be, and I've had people that tried to create a homicide out of a suicide.

PATTI: I know, because they can't deal with that.

TODD: Yeah, and that makes it harder for police officers too because; then when something really happens like that in the family are right. They are so often classified as your grieving family member can't deal with the reality of what happened.

PATTI: You're in denial, right.

TODD: You're in denial. And sometimes it's not the case that hurts everybody else when it's that situation, but now I'm a psychic and I'll say for five-hundred dollars I can tell you what happened to your daughter. Now, what do you feel about somebody that's so definitive about what they can tell you and for what amount they can tell you for.

PATTI: Well...

TODD: There's people out there. I know there's people out there.

PATTI: Right, I think that all of us view things differently now. In all the years that I investigated, I don't take money for doing investigations. I never have. So that for, it forced me to have to get on the college circuit, to open up a shop, to teach classes on the weekends. I do my Bardstown ghost walk, so I am able to be a professional ghost hunter. But I do not make my money off of people that are suffering because of their paranormal experiences their having. Now, I don't see. I think that, now, and of course every once and awhile my husband will get a little upset because I'll have people call me and they'll keep me on the phone for two hours. And he'll say if you were a psychiatrist or another profession you would charge those people because it does take up a lot of my time, see. And I'm like worn out with people that would like information, and you should exchange energy for energy. In other words, if you come into my shop and you exchange your money for my product, that's the energy of money for the energy of my product. So, that's an even swap. It's good. It's healthy. Sometimes people will have more appreciation if they have to pay for information. They feel like it must be real if they go to a psychic, and the psychic says I do any reading whatsoever but I charge five dollars a minute or I charge four dollars a minute. It's up to you to decide if the information you want to hear, will it be worth that. And if it's not go to someone else. I kinda look at it differently because I do have friends who are psychics, very good psychics, and they do make very good money. More money then I'll probably can see a day of making. As much as three-hundred thousand a year, but there's a good and there's very, how do I say it? In other words, if they have, say they have somebody who gets a little addicted to you, you have to be careful. And say they have one person who keeps calling them all the time or making an appointment and they realize that this person has put a lot of money, that they'll tell them, "Look I'd rather not read for you anymore because you are. You've become to dependant". Now what's going to happen is, she'll go "fine, I'll find somebody else," and she will. She'll go to somebody else.

TODD: Because you shouldn't take get a psychic for every step that you're going to take. Theirs a destiny in life. I certainly wouldn't want to consult with somebody with I'm going to take this trip tomorrow, am I going to make it through it. Am I going to have a flat tire? There's things that you just need to leave to life itself. I think it's more or less a resolution to try to. What do I need to do? Because you were so genuine when I met you, I knew that you weren't one of the people that was going to be an unsavory person. You were very genuine open and honest and there's no guarantees. I know you went to a scene. You even told me when you went to the scene that' there's nothing saying that we'll see anything. And right away, I thought, if you were going to promise me we were going to see something and you were going to be able to create this or make sure that it happened while we were there you know there, I would have had a lot of doubts. I mean, you were very open and honest from the very start, but can you recommend somebody, try to seek psychics, because there's so many out there. But there are people, realistically, there's people who take advantage of every situation. Not just as in this realm, there's a lot of fake.

PATTI: Yeah, and every profession and every religion and every. Your psychiatry. You have your psychiatrist who sleeps with their patients. You have doctors that cheated on their. They say they have a license and they don't and they practice. But you don't look at every doctor and say o well then I'll never go to another doctor again because theirs this doctor over here and he's not a very good. You can't judge, take one person in that field that has been really wrong and just feel like that you can't trust anybody in that field because of that. Because in all fields, you're going to go find those people that are not quite savory. They are doing things that are not quite up to par.

TODD: Yeah, there's one in each field I'm sure. Now I deal with private investigators a lot. And you see there are some that are little bowls of what they are able to promise. And you have to think there are some who are very costly and some who donate their time. The radio show we're doing now. This is totally voluntary effort. We're doing this simply because we're trying to bring messages to people, and talk to people like you because everybody's wondering. Now I get this question a lot from people. Do I need to try and find a psychic? Do you believe in that? I did have a particular interest and experience with the Tent Girl. So of course, I have to think, I
can't say that it's not though.

PATTI: Well, I'm very fortunate I have just about 4 or 5 psychics in my life, in my environment that I use constantly. And they are the real things. They're wonderful. They're good. They're very professional. And they've helped so many people. And when I can see those kinds of results; I don't hesitate. I don't hesitate even for a minute people, not at all.

TODD: What's some of the most interesting cases that you've worked on? Where is the entertaining side because it is Halloween after all, the most haunted place in Kentucky. I know you wrote a lot about Kentucky and beyond.

PATTI: Well, I tell you...

TODD: If somebody's really wanting to have a good opportunity to experience something and maybe judge for themselves.

PATTI: Well, I love Bardstown, Kentucky. There's a lot of places in Byrdstown. there's the old Jailer's Inn, which has been named 1 of the 10 most haunted places in America by the Travel Channel. And then right across from the Jailer's Inn, you'll find the Talbert Cavern, where Jesse James supposedly haunts that place. And I think I have some pretty good evidence that he's there. And then there's, so if anybody wanted to go there and stay a night. Of course, as usual, just because you rent a room or you decide to do a ghost hunt that weekend...you may not or may not get anything. Just like fishing, sometimes you get your fishing buddy and he goes 'O my gosh, I found the great place and your going to catch all these fish", and you go out there and fish for hours and hours and don't catch anything. Maybe next time you'll catch a whole boat full.

TODD: So there's a lot of entertainment that you know if it's not real, but I mean. You don't have to be somebody that's just 'o I really need to get a message to the other side'. I mean, there's just a simple feeling you get, because there's nothing like the thrill of Halloween, being scared. A lot of people have always enjoyed that type of thing.

PATTI: And I think for right now, not to be promoting myself. I don't need to do that. With the ghost walk we're doing in Bardstown. The walkers that come and walk with us. I mean goodness gracious my presentation right before the ghost walk starts, I do a forty-five minute presentation and most of the photos I have are from the walkers that I got that have sent me photos over the last four years of amazing things that they've got. We've got apparitions, faces in widows, and myths and, and vortexes, all kinds of varying unexplained shapes and myths, and, oh it's been wonderful.

TODD: Well, I've got a question for you that I already know the answer to because we've talked about it before. Have you ever had any police officers take your course?

PATTI: Oh, yes! I certainly have. I had a gentleman that graduated from West Point as an intelligence officer that took my course, and he was very, very good at dowsing. He LOVED the dowsing aspect. And I've got a high school teacher right now that is part of our group and he made teacher of the year two years in a row, she's a mid wife and she's on the list of potential players of the TV show Survivor.

TODD: Wow, seems like she's got kind of a full plate.

PATTI: I have a really great and diverse group of people involved in my organization. I have a lady who plays in the symphony, I've had a psychiatrist take my course, I've had people that are involved in veterinary medicine etc. You name it; I've had students form just about every walk of life and profession.

TODD: Have you noticed that your police officers have taken a new way of looking at their own investigations?

PATTI: Oh, absolutely because when I had police officers to take my course and they'll come up and talk to me, and of course, they'll all have a story for you to hear, and they say, " People don't know it, but we're a whole lot more open than you can imagine, being a police officer, you get calls in the middle of the night and you have got to go check them out. We've seen apparitions and you just don't say nothing. "They witness a lot of stuff because they're out there in the middle of the night, they're out there when that false alarm goes off that they can't figure out and they have to go in and search the place, and chairs get moves around, and then they turn around and those stairs weren't there before. They've got some good stories.

TODD: So you think maybe they're just reaching for better understanding?

PATTI: Yes. And then, believe it or not, we had a member and he was always on time and he went to every ghost investigation that we had, and then one day he didn't show up. So I called and didn't get an answer and then a couple later I tried again because now I'm concerned because I try to stay real close with the members. And his wife answered the phone, and I said 'well I just wanted to check with Mike. I hadn't heard from him in the last couple of weeks, and I just wanted to let him know there's upcoming Ghost investigations. And she goes, 'I'm sorry, Patti, Mike died.' I was like 'What?' What happened was he had cancer, and he was, he didn't have that long to live. And he wanted to take the course for his own, coming face to face with death himself. And I think he really wanted to get out there, and first-hand see maybe get the idea of what it was going to be about.

TODD: And what's wrong with hoping that there's something? And it's hard for a family member, when they've been taught that suicide is instant Hell. And what is unusual about I wish it wasn't that way. And I'd like to learn a little more about it where I don't have to take what I've already been beat into my brain. It's seeking comfort. There's so many times that this is just seeking comfort, Well, I'm going to cheat a little bit tonight. Actually sign-off because our time is nearly up. I'm going to talk to Patti just a little while longer on the telephone. We're just going to talk just a little while longer, but it's been a great show. I've loved having you here, probably going to have you back with some specific cases. You got a busy Fall planned, but we will stay in touch by e-mail and telephone. You are all welcome of course to check out Patti's web-site www.GhostHunter.com and check it out for yourself.

PATTI: Todd, I have been totally honored being ask to be a guest on your show. I really appreciate it, thank you so much.

TODD: You're so welcome; I hope to have you back, good night to everyone, looking forward to next week's show!


Halloween Special

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All that remains of the "Lady who Danced Herself to Death"
A very special note from our host,
Todd Matthews:
~I want to thank my oldest son Dillan for all his help with this transcription!~

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Click Here For "2007" Halloween Special - Featuring Darren Shell with the "Gravedigger Tours"
Aired: October 31, 2006
Guest: Patti Starr
Ghost Chasers International